"From 2015 to 2019, #Iceland ran the world's largest trial of a shorter working week. An analysis of the results was finally published this week, and surprise! Everyone was happier, healthier, and more productive. Please pretend to be surprised."
mashable.com/article/iceland-f

🇮🇸 :blobaww:

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@rysiek
"This study shows that the world's largest ever trial of a shorter working week in the public sector was by all measures an overwhelming success"

That is the catch, you are only surveying the people enjoying the benefits of the measure and silencing those who will pay the price.

In the private sector you can't shorten the hours worked and keep the same wedges without compulsively plundering the employers...

@lovizio did you just completely miss the fact that productivity went up or stayed the same, or are you purposefully trying to muddy the waters here?

Honest question.

@rysiek
Please, ask openly, no problem :D

How production is measured?
How that measurement takes into account subkective well being of the entire population involved in the economy?

My point os that it can't and thus it only is taking into account some arbitrary measire that show the result they want to show, metodologically is kind of weak, is a byased measurement.

@rysiek
In particilar in the public sector, is a problem harder to solve.

How the private sector "knows” wen some product/service is not required?:
Because nobody voluntarily buy it (value more the product than the price they are paying), thet reveils the preferences that otherwise cant be articulated untill that choice

Since the thaxpayer can't express their will by quiting paying taxes when the state uses that money for things they don't want, that things and services keeps being produced.

@lovizio productivity is not measured by how much of your stuff people buy. Productivity is measured with how much of the stuff you produce.

You are claiming it's harder to measure productivity in the public sector than in the private sector -- okay, interesting. Do you have any source?

@rysiek

Yes, but you can have situations of high productivity and cero well being, the case of a slave is a nice example.

Depending on who you ask in your study and how, you may get different results (ask the master, the slave, both... you get the idea)

@lovizio so, effectively, your point is that studies are impossible.

That's a starting point that makes any discussion impossible too, so not sure why we're talking.

Unless we can agree that while no methodology is perfect, studies still let us reason about the world.

If we do, then perhaps you'd be interested in this study by *Microsoft* that led to similar results (productivity up by ~40%):
mashable.com/article/microsoft

@rysiek

Never say that, but to be clear:

Studies are posible but you have to be super cautious on how you set them up.

Maybe we are tlaking to not fall in the echo chamber of each one, kind of healthy sometimes. 🤷‍♂️

Assuming that both studies are right and that is the outcome of changing the hours worked, that would be a killer, companies and unions both will be pleased, needless to say the current governament, if that is trully a win win situation, but why do you think is not implemented?

@lovizio somebody already put it pretty well somewhere in this thread: it just doesn't fit with the "life is a zero-sum game" philosophy deeply embedded in and internalized by capitalism.

The problem is that life is not, in fact, a zero-sum game. These studies are a good reminder of that.

@rysiek

Capitalism doesn't say that life is a cero sum game.

I don't think is a cero sum game in this regard (obviously othe field it is, but you get my point) that other point in wicj we both agree

Even more! Thay guy von Mises, also say it is Not a cero sum game, so maybe there you can find something interesting. And actually he proves you are kind of right by believing that.

So lets try to assume less what the other is saying or thinking and just ask

@rysiek
...Then don't be surpriced if less business are willing to open in places with that regulation...

...In the publisc sector, by definition you are plundering the thaxpayer who will pay for the rise in the cost of each hour worked by the public employee.

If people didn't voluntarily accepted without state cohersion, it is becaus it can't be done without damaging other sectors, the whole picture must be taken into account if you are really looking to understand how things work.

@lovizio oh man, no seriously, which part of "productivity stayed the same or improved" do you not understand?

@rysiek

It begs the question: then if productivity increases why you need to force people to adopt it?

Why didn't other company developed that and used to their advantage like historically companies have made by developing improvements on the human resouces?

@lovizio I literally *just* linked you to a Microsoft study with very similar results.

But the question is valid: indeed, *why* didn't businesses adopt a shorter work week it yet, even though there are multiple studies showing increased productivity?

To me, it speaks volumes about the wastefulness and irrationality of the private sector.

@rysiek

To me is because someone in that sistem is not willing to voluntarily accept it for some resason and that shuld be taken seriously because that is how the things that are hard to see or understand are expressed. The provate sector acting in freedom os not irratoonal, is so complex and above our understanding that *looks* irrational for people.

Similar to the Artur C. Clarke quote

"Any sufficiently advanced tecnology is indistiguishable from magic"

@lovizio well that's just hand-waving and saying capitalism is magic and whatever corporate overlords do is good, and if it seems bad, it's because we can't understand their intricate reasoning. :blobwizard:

Meanwhile, Canada is burning due to short-sighted decisions of these same corporate overlords.

To use capitalist parlance: I ain't buying what you're selling here.

@rysiek

In part you are right, not all things irrational in apperience are sometimg we don't undertand, is good to state ot clear. But at least you got my point 👍

You don't *have to* that wouldn be interesting, just wanted some different perspective

@rysiek
*Is not the intricated reasoning of "their" (overlord) os the intrincated *consequences* of our day to day choices, who said that our understanding of everything is unlimitted?

Some effects are hard to undrstand, the long lasting comsequences of a policie implemented, and the casual relatipn in wich produced some ouput - Give ot a read to " Which We See and That Which We Do Not See" | Frédéric Bastiat

@lovizio @rysiek

The 7 day working week is a holdover from prehistory, lunar months divide evenly into 4 weeks of 7 days.

Napoleon attempted to make a 10 day week, among other reforms, and that point was opposed on strictly religious grounds.

Now that religiosity has declined there's room for experimentation. Labour generally seems to prefer the 4 day work week. Some industries already have " 4 days on 4 days off" shifts.

@xenmen

In short, if you have to enforce a policie you can bet that someone is being harmed in some way, it may be a more obvious way or maybe something imposible to articulate.

The policie maker don't (and can't) know how te people affected by the regulations subjectively value the "things they are givin up"(money, time, etc...) an the things they are gainin, so there is no way that person A can decide for person B what is best for him/her. It is a matter of information.

@rysiek

@xenmen

I'm just against social engeneering in general, that never go well in the long run.

As I shared in this thread yesterday, an article by Frederic Bastiat, "That Which is Seen, and That Which is Not Seen" will explain the idea better infinitly than me. And show why se really bad policies are so easy to "sell" and really tempting at first glance.

@rysiek

@rysiek

They can certainly try, but people (particular cases aside) learn how to deal with new things, new behabiours are discovered over time with the power of trial and error of millions of people and keeping the practices that turn out to be the best.

@xenmen

@rysiek

If social networks are something adictive and harmfull, what make you belive that the people won't react in consequence?, the mere fact that you and me are discussing this using mastodon as an alternative to the problem that you're showing kind of proves my point, we are learning how to deal with this, time will tell
@xenmen

@rysiek
For the sources you can take a look at

{Analitical backgrond, praxeology}
- Human Action | von Mises

{For the metodology of the study, what thy show and what they don't}
- How to lie with statistics (short and kind of fun reading, independently of political views)

{Historical references and some other perpectives}
- Why the nations fail | Acemoglue & Robinson

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