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I'm seeing self-proclaimed libertarians say the government should have tied up the COVID vaccines in years of testing while millions died.

@gmcgath

Are you saying the "government" did everything perfectly? Or perhaps, that we shouldn't have had any testing at all, because if so we could have "saved" even more millions?

Or perhaps the deaths are massively inflated and what we have is just a flu if you are under 70 and this is just a power grab?

Questions, questions... perspectives, perspectives.

@h4890 @gmcgath

I’m not your target of criticism, but it is valid to criticise an exemption of the normal procedures for validating the safety of a vaccine.

A separate argument can be had about whether the government should even have a role, and this scenario of skipping the normal validation only strengthens that argument.

@Laconicif @gmcgath

I've not even started to criticise, at the moment, I'm just raising questions in a slightly provocative way.

Depending on how it goes, we can then move on to the dissection of terms and definitions, and post that, perhaps get a good discussion going. ;)

@Laconicif @h4890 @gmcgath


>it is valid to criticise an exemption of the normal procedures for validating the safety of a vaccine.

>A separate argument can be had about whether the government should even have a role, and this scenario of skipping the normal validation only strengthens that argument.

These two statements seem contradictory to me. It seems to be equivalent to saying "we should follow bad rules that produce bad outcomes".

Maybe you can provide an example of the kind of valid critique you have in mind?

@anonymoose

To clarify, my comment was in response to OP @gmcgath not @h4890

Within the existing reality where the FDA approves drugs, it is valid to have concerns about the safety of vaccines because they have a monopoly on the approval process. They have so much of a monopoly, that they are able to release the companies from all liability! Everything is distorted.
The above only strentgens the libertarian case for fewer regulations. If they can be fast tracked and skip the normal process.. was the normal process ever necessary?

So..

If you leave it to the market, they can be produced at the same speed or faster apparently when the gov steps to the side, but with market regulations ensuring safety.

@anonymoose @Laconicif @gmcgath @h4890

Ah, pick-and-choose libertarianism. Now do patents. Don't forget to include a brief WWII background, when companies had to forego patents, even share trade secrets and other secrets with competitors.
@polarisera

> pick and choose libertarian

I dont see where I have a choice in the current configuration of society.

> now do patents

I dont like patents. They cause more problems than they solve, and those problems tend to benefit globocorp more often than not. Done.

@anonymoose @gmcgath @h4890

@Laconicif @anonymoose @gmcgath @polarisera

Maybe herr polarisera, you could elaborate a bit? I'm not quite sure what you are after.

@h4890 @Laconicif @anonymoose @gmcgath

While Copyright, Trademarks and Patents exist, there are no free market solutions, only underhanded lies that support monopolies and state/business partnerships against the common man. So what, the FDA exists. As long as the other state-dependent intellectual properties do, streamlining the FDA is just another joke, another loophole for the confiscatory elite. I detest libertarian loop-de-loops of disingenuousness, piecemeal sacrificing our rights for billionaire's feelings. Start with releasing patents to the public domain.

@polarisera FDA, NIH, CDC, and the WHO cannot be trusted.

Not fond of the FBI, CIA, NSA, ATF, DIA, DoD, IRS, etc. either right now, and if they start tracking and/or coercing you, start looking for the underground (they’re not really usually actually under-the-ground unless the CIA or ATF already talked to them). @h4890 @Laconicif @anonymoose @gmcgath

@polarisera @h4890 @Laconicif @gmcgath re: patents, they are an invention of the state, they don't exist in ancapistan.

Repeating something you said, or writing down something you wrote doesn't violate the nap.

Seeing a cool invention you made and figuring out how to make it myself doesn't violate the nap. If I claim original authorship or invention, that is fraud and can addressed by tort, otherwise it's all fair game.

@anonymoose @gmcgath @polarisera @Laconicif

This is a pretty obvious and logical way in which patents would "not" work in ancapistan.

I think maybe the confusion here is arguing from todays world or relating to how thongs work today?

I mean in a truly libertarian world, as you say, patents are meaningless.

@h4890 @gmcgath @polarisera @Laconicif weirdly, many libertarians are pro IP. I think it stems from Rand, who was vicious in defense of her IP.

@anonymoose @gmcgath @polarisera @Laconicif

That is very strange. I can see how it works in a minarchist society, but I cannot see how it would work in a libertarian society at all.

As you said above, the only thing I can think of is some kind of contractual arrangement with the potential customers that bans them frmo doing X, Y and Z.

But if someone recreates or rediscovers the product or service, not much you can do about that.

@h4890 @Laconicif @gmcgath

It sounds like the objection is really about vaccine passports / mandates; more of a "these don't even meet your own standards, why are you forcing them on me" argument, and perhaps Mcgrath is misunderstanding (or strawmaning) this to be a complaint about lack of fda approval instead of a complaint about government trying to deprive people of their right to freely choose their own Healthcare options.

Does that capture your argument more or less?
@h4890 @gmcgath

>Questions, questions... perspectives, perspectives.

Indeed. This is the problem with a one-size-fits-all policy for a national of 350 million people.

@anonymoose @gmcgath

Try a "some sizes fits all" for 7.8 billion people.

My opinion is that corona is massively overblown for the 70-, no vaccines are neccesary for all but the weakest and the oldest, and that all vaccination should be based on voluntary free consent.

Last but not least, I see this as a major threat to western democracy and that we are moving towards health fascist states, coupled with eco fascism.

But, at least I read some promising news from Florida today, so (...)

@anonymoose @gmcgath maybe that's where rationalists, free thinkers and pro science people will end up in the end. ;)

@gmcgath Millions died of what? The pandemic is a hoax, through and through. Even if it weren’t, it still wouldn’t justify using the human population as guinea pigs for an experimental vaccine whose efficacity its own makers aren’t willing to vouch for. Far more are being killed and seriously injured by the vaccine than by the alleged virus.

@recusant Already had this idiot muted. Now blocking.

@gmcgath Get them out, fast as you can. Speed to market caused foregoing testing so warnings should be issued with each shot – government agents giving the vaccines should be required to tell the people they’re signing away any right to hold accountable the government, vaccine inventors, or vaccine producers. Any companies offering incentives should be required to issue those disclaimers, from the free donut to the interest-free five-year car loan.

#1 - Good to get them out. They should be given with disclaimers.

No one should be coerced by government. The government should not offer incentives. They should definitely not organize block captains to coerce citizens into getting a shot like the CCP did with their One-family One-child program and Biden just announced the US Federal Government will for his “Co-vax”.

#2 - No government coercion. Vaccine Passports to enter anywhere or buy anything should be made illegal. Your health is between you and your doctor, no one else – no one else should be allowed to ask.

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