@Liberty4Masses

> That wasn't real socialism.

Translation:

If *I or my favorite leader were in charge* the socialist system would just work.

What hubris.

@RandomDamage @Liberty4Masses Freedom is man's natural state. Markets are made for man. Therefore, the optimal state of any market is that of freedom.

@profoundlynerdy @Liberty4Masses an optimal state that somehow fails to exist without a referee to make sure that nobody is cheating.

Of course, said referees are only human and can be compromised, see Soviet Russia after the fall of the government over there. Amazing how an unregulated market yielded so many very, very rich men.

@RandomDamage @profoundlynerdy I have an apple. You have a dollar. I want a dollar. You want an apple. We trade. Multiply that by billions of occurrences every day. Congratulations, that’s capitalism. No “referee” needed. There, my own simplistic example to count your simplistic “takedown”.

It’s very telling that you think Soviet Russia after its collapse is an example of capitalism though 😂😂😂

@Liberty4Masses @profoundlynerdy it was driven by markets with no referee.

The natural imbalances there were, of course, amplified by circumstance, but *it was Capitalism, pure and "free"*.

@RandomDamage @profoundlynerdy This is your shining example of “failed capitalism”? Either you have no actual understanding of the political environment in the fallen Soviet Union, or worse, you are malignantly lying. Your adored “referee” was in no way missing; it was taking bribes and dishing out the goods to political cronies in pay-to-play schemes. It’s literally one of the worst historical examples of your “referee” absolutely failing.

@RandomDamage @profoundlynerdy Seriously though, you should understand the facts before making wildly inaccurate commentaries like this. Conflating a fallen communist State with capitalism is laughably errant. 🤷‍♂️

@Liberty4Masses @RandomDamage @profoundlynerdy No need to belittle people. Geeze, friendly debate here.

So back with the cycle meme, you could insert Feudalism. Be like "This Republic is bullshit, things were better when Lord X was in charge or before Queen Y died"

There is a time where various States with various systems rose and fell, and I'm sure many republics failed before they became the successful norm we tend to associate with less-autocratic/more-free states.

@Liberty4Masses @profoundlynerdy the referee participated in the market. Utterly free trade, with nobody enforcing the rules.

Total Capitalism, in it's purest form.

But of course, "it wasn't REAL Capitalism".

@Liberty4Masses @profoundlynerdy Show me a place with no starting imbalances and no base motivations, and I'll show you a place where Capitalism could work in its pure form.

Meanwhile I'll be here dealing with the real world, warts and all.

@Liberty4Masses @profoundlynerdy yeah, didn't think you had a convincing argument in you.

Nice try, though.

@RandomDamage @profoundlynerdy you literally either completely misunderstand or misrepresent your entire laughable argument and then expect to be taken seriously. Trying to play the smug card when you’re wrong about everything doesn’t really work for you 😂 Anyhow, I’m bored of you and your fact-less, irrational rambling. Be gone 👋

@Liberty4Masses @RandomDamage @profoundlynerdy I don't want your Apple because you're black. You owe me 500 Apples so you're now my slave.

Capitalism requests people are free to contribute resources. Freedom requires a State, because someone needs a monopoly on violence to enforce freedom; to limit the violence.

The free market is a big myth because markets cannot exist outside of States (even when a state falls, the new market comes with a defacto State, according to Grabber).

@djsumdog @RandomDamage @profoundlynerdy “You owe me 500 Apples so you're now my slave.” Wut? Your whole post makes no sense...

@Liberty4Masses @RandomDamage @profoundlynerdy You said "no referee" needed. Well, that's just totally wrong.

In a true Capitalist society, I should be free to not serve and not higher Asians, or blacks, or gingers. But the state had to referee because pure capitalism leads to injustices. In pure capitalism, you can get yourself in so much debt that you sell yourself into slavery. In fact most early slavery came directly from debt or war.

Capitalism (And freedom) can't exist without a referee.

@djsumdog @profoundlynerdy @RandomDamage @Liberty4Masses
Just an addendum to the previous post. Not even a disagreement necessarily, more like me playing devil's advocate.

I think we can all agree the state doesn't always correct injustices either, often it's simply chosen what it deems to be the lesser of two evils, or whatever itself would prefer to see.

While yes, you could refuse to serve or hire for whatever reason (racism being the earlier example), is it not also an injustice to be forced to do something you do not want to do with your property? Given the choice of two injustices, the state chooses one to be preferable and enforces it through monopoly on violence.

Slavery is a touchy subject (yet it always seems to come up in these sorts of discussions), so I'll only point out that in cases of widespread slavery often it is enforced or given credibility by the state through its enforcement of what it deems to be potential property.

The state merely enforced laws that represent the will of the primary legislators, whether that be a single lord, a group of oligarchs, or the people themselves.

@clarkyCat @profoundlynerdy @Liberty4Masses @djsumdog the State is an amplifier of societal norms. The US Government was designed with a norm built in of "protect minorities from hostile majorities", but that is not a universal norm even in the US.

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Liberdon is a Mastodon instance for libertarians, ancaps, anarchists, voluntaryists, agorists, etc to sound off without fear of reprisal from jack or zuck. It was created in the wake of the Great Twitter Cullings of 2018, when a number of prominent libertarian accounts were suspended or banned.